Billy Riggs (00:37)
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the fourth episode of Rewiring the American Edge. I'm your co-host, Billy Riggs and.

we focus on automation and innovation across many sectors, but really focusing on transportation jobs, the economy. And this episode, we really want to focus on kind of our cities prepared. And...

In our past few episodes, we really focused on jobs and the economy and we're going to really kind of try to hit that home today. You'll notice in episode three, in our last episode, I was talking to you from Europe, where I talked with the European Commission. Check that out. It was a solo episode. people, hope you really liked that.

but maybe we should get started. But before we do that, I want to give a little bit of a plug and say, encourage you if you're checking us out for the first time, encourage you to ask us questions, reach out. We have a University of San Francisco email, AVCITY, AVCITY at USFCA.edu.

That's AVCITY, AVCITY at USFCA.edu. Ask us questions there. You can also reach out via LinkedIn to me, William Riggs or Billy Riggs on LinkedIn or Vipul, Vipul Vyas on LinkedIn. Ask us questions, stuff you want us to talk about.

Is there stuff that you're interested in? Stuff you want us to cover. We aren't doing anything live stream yet, but happy to air those questions out online also we can use your support. We do a lot of research. We do a lot of teaching. We do a lot of education.

If you want to support what we do through our teaching, our research, feel free

All of your support is tax deductible through University of San Francisco. Let us know. And if you would like to support us, reach out at usfca.edu. And further ado, let's get started with how do we make our city stronger? What are we doing? Are our cities ready for tomorrow? Yeah, Vipul.

Vipul Vyas (02:45)
Hey, Billy. Good to chat again. Excited talk about how we can prepare labor for the future.

Billy Riggs (02:53)
Yo yo, hey, yeah. Been too long. Did you catch, you didn't catch my solo, solo presentation last week? I did a little, a little solo thing from Europe. Yeah, yeah, was a little, little, little bit, a little bit transporty.

Vipul Vyas (03:04)
No, I missed it. I'm sorry.

nice.

Billy Riggs (03:12)
But there's

a lot happening in Europe on collapsing in the job market between

in the automotive sector. So you're seeing a lot of jobs flattening in the automotive sector where you're seeing a lot of changes and a lot of kind of redundancies go away. And I think there's a lot of vulnerabilities from European automakers that even Europeans don't realize and even Europe.

is going to get out competed by surprise surprise. What country? Yeah, China. you know, I don't think the one thing that I love Europe, realizing is that even Europe, the EU, and it was sad for me because I have a lot of

Vipul Vyas (03:48)
China?

Billy Riggs (04:00)
European friends that that that are that are really excited about some of the European initiatives that that are Coming out and that say, you know, kind of that Europe has to innovate to to get itself out of of this, this this lack of innovation. And one of the initiatives is

called the Draghi Report, and it's about how Europe has failed to innovate. And one of the top initiatives is closing the innovation gap. And one of the ways they're talking about doing it is by taking these incremental steps. And I...

I listened to these panels and they're talking about these incremental steps and I raised my hand and I said, do you really think these incremental steps are the steps you need to take to outpace these Chinese and even these US innovators that are taking these non-incremental, like radical innovative steps? I said, like, there's no way you catch up. know, there's absolutely no way you close the innovation gap, quote unquote.

taking incremental steps.

Vipul Vyas (05:07)
mean, it's theoretically possible. Like, that's the way the Japanese have done it historically with their continuous improvement approach. they exercise a discipline over a long arc of time. And it didn't hold true forever. So it got them to a point of stability, but not a breakout state. mean, you don't think of certain, you know,

You don't think of key technologies, maybe batteries, maybe accepted, although the Chinese really taking the lead there. But the approach you're talking about, Europe has a lot of ground to catch up from. The Japanese kind of gained ground by taking that slow, the turtle kind of wins the race sort of approach from the beginning when no one was looking. Europe can't do that to your point because they're already behind the eight ball.

Billy Riggs (05:54)
Yeah.

Vipul Vyas (05:55)
they're

gonna have to unleash some animal spirits that if they aren't unleashed, they're just gonna continue to languish. And I suspect that incremental approach that you're talking about really is aligned with that. We're probably removing regulations a little bit at a time.

Billy Riggs (06:11)
But yeah, mean, the thing in Europe was kind of, I mean, it was a little depressing. have to say that it was a, I have to say I left, I've sent a couple emails since then just saying that I was inspired and depressed just about.

there's so much potential, but there's also a lack of.

reticence to kind of go full in with innovation and risk taking. It's just like there's kind of a risk aversion that's so much different than what we have in the US. it's, I just, I don't know, I don't know if that's what it takes to truly

quote unquote, close the innovation gap. particularly when we think about like, they wanna, if we think about like this kind of like, if AI is the third wave, and if we are moving into the kind of the AI future, and if we are harnessing this feature of kind of.

AI being the future of productivity and I don't know that they will be the dominant, that maybe Europe will not be the dominant economy moving into the next century.

Vipul Vyas (07:41)
Well, I mean, it was multiple times bigger than the Chinese economy at the turn of the century, and it's been lapped in 25 years. That's an impressive feat of stagnation.

Billy Riggs (07:48)
Yeah.

So yeah, and I think, you know.

that's the hamster wheel I've been on since being back from Europe. But anyway, that's a summary. And that's the takeaway from our last little episode three that I did by myself. So, but anyway, it said maybe it's time to, to, for me to shut up and for us to welcome our, our

Vipul Vyas (08:06)
Let's see.

Just for

the day.

Billy Riggs (08:14)
guest here

esteemed guests who I've never met in person and should have met in person because I didn't I didn't attend the the amazing event that happened between you and Henriette and Seneca. So welcome Seneca. I'm Billy. Billy Riggs, Professor University of San Francisco, and co-host of this little thing that the one I have called Rewiring the American Edge which is a spinoff

of

the thing that we do at University of San Francisco related to automation and innovation and trying to figure out what is the future of AI and automation look like with cities and transport and labor and everything happening that

I think you're engaged with and government and everything. So I think we want to hear from you and I'm going to turn it over to Vipul and let him drive and just recede in the background. And I want to learn from you.

Vipul Vyas (09:10)
Yeah.

Hey, Seneca, good to see you again.

Seneca Scott (09:13)
you. So, uh... No, no, no, I was waiting for you to tell me what we talked about.

Vipul Vyas (09:16)
So today we're gonna talk, go ahead, Seneca, go ahead.

Yeah, we're talking about how to prepare the American.

Seneca Scott (09:23)
You

Vipul Vyas (09:25)
labor force and specifically Americans in general for the future that is increasingly uncertain which opens up opportunity and opens up risks all at the same time as always is the case and what are what is our leadership doing about that and what are they probably more importantly not doing about that so the thoughts I have just to sort of tee off the conversation is

We're entering a period in 2025 of massive change, period very different from what we saw for the last 25 years or even 50 years or, you we can even say 80 plus years since the, you know, first quarter of the last century. And those changes are sort of the collapse of the existing dominant world order. And in the last

25 years of change that we're seeing now as an attempt to onshore manufacturing as one example, decoupling from other economies in a controlled way, specifically China, but others in general, becoming more self-reliant. And then of course, the emergence of AI and the implications on work in general, both at least white collar work in the immediate term and blue collar work potentially in the longer term.

on shaping how, well, what work is in America. And so all those changes are happening. And I'll close by saying, I see strategy documents around AI from the government of Singapore, from the government of the Emirates or the UAE. But we are, in our cities in America, focused on removing poop from the streets, removing fentanyl from the streets.

Removing crime and some just in potholes some basic important things that I don't begrudge and I think you know the mayor of san francisco is actually doing a decent job in tackling those things but what I don't see Are those other things that these cities that don't that are past those problems to some extent Are already doing and we're going to be caught flat-footed. So i'll pause there And let you kind of react to a lot of stuff. I laid down. Sorry Sure

Billy Riggs (11:38)
What, what, yeah, wait, wait, wait, before you, before you go

on your rant, I think we should also, we should, yeah, we should also tell, tell Seneca because our, our global audience and I should know I was in, I was in Europe last week and, talked to the European commission. And so we have a kind of a, we have a pretty big footprint here. So Seneca, you're amazing. I've read your profile and we do a lot of work in Oakland. You should tell everybody who you are. you're like.

Vipul Vyas (11:42)
I already went on my rant, but then go ahead.

Sorry, that's fair enough.

Billy Riggs (12:07)
East Coast, East Coast Cornell

grad and like you tell your story too, because I think you're, you've got a really unique story.

Seneca Scott (12:11)
man, that's a

podcast in itself, but I'll keep it quick. ⁓ My name is Seneca Scott. I am a post-partisan community organizer. I say that I'm an independent. I don't do left or right. I do up, down, leave, have, integrity, or you don't. Unfortunately, most people in our government don't. I spent a career as a union organizer until full time until 2014, and then I consulted all the way up into 2020.

Vipul Vyas (12:15)
you

Seneca Scott (12:39)
And sort of after COVID and being just sort of really shocked by what I consider the most important tenet of the left being intelligent or thinking through problems and being honest and having integrity, there was just abandonment. And I realized that this abandonment was not overnight and that I myself was...

sort of caught up in it and didn't really see that until I sort of became a regular neighbor and was fell by the very apologies that I helped put in place. Excuse me. So, you know, I don't like bullies. I'm deaf and I have contact with, I'm kind of blind, I'm 50 % deaf. I was too little bit growing up and luckily for me, I got big at 13, but I've always fucking hated bullies.

And that's why I became a union organizer, to stop the working class from being bullied. And then when I saw the taxpayers being bullied, now by these, not the public sector union members, but the leadership, and I started seeing this sprawling NGO cabal that has tendrils and all over the world and how many people are engaging in active fifth generation warfare against America. Then you had the whole thing break.

with the USAID scandal, with the fact that now we know for a fact that we were employing these same tactics that we do to destabilize other nations right here domestically, which is illegal. And you're seeing this unfold and I'm like, I am in ground zero of American politics. we let our recalls, we recalled our mayor and DA, we're organizing, we're fighting, we're creating real grassroots movements for the people.

And it's been, I would say exciting, but mostly it's just hard, you know, but I think it's worth it. And around the country, people are waking up. So that's good. Let's keep waking people up so they can get involved. And one last thing I'll add is my consultant group, last year in consultant group, we just started a couple of months ago for our national program. We're working in Tennessee or some other.

States right now. It was found after reading the Revolt of the Elites by Christopher Lash. If none of you have ever read it, I'm not going to get up and get it, but it's on my shelf behind me. It goes to a deep dive about the civic responsibility of the elites. And if you talk about our financial elite, how they have abandoned any semblance of this responsibility and how that is now hurting us. So to turn the conversation to AI, I've actually been

was with a friend from Metta yesterday having dinner. We were talking about how fast things are going to move. Right when that's happening, I'm getting articles sent to me by people talk about the trucking in Texas, how it's being automated. And then I'm having my friend tell me how he just had a whole debate on what was the best video game of all time and had AI debate itself.

And he was shocked at how the quality of the arguments were. And that most people just can't even begin to form these arguments. And it all happened in like an hour. it didn't hit me like, crap. I've actually was interviewed for a documentary that's Coming out on Netflix this year about AI. We are, I think I got it. I think I put it together.

And I want you guys depending on this because your scope is global and mine is very local.

I think it's all of this belaying in education, the poor food quality, the othering, all of this, the microplast, everything, all the environmental, all of that has led to not just the divide between the has and have nots with money, it's creating a fundamental.

barrier that financiers can't handle right now with, will you be on this side or this side in the next turning? And then you look at our life expectancy, it's plummeting worldwide.

It's not an accident. They know. So we're always telling ourselves, we need to have these mass extinction events. And they're gonna have all these crazy things with the guide stones and all the tin foil hot stuff. And I'm like, we don't need to do any of that. All they need to do is wait 20 years. Our life expectancy's already plummeting to below replacement level in many places to remove the useless eaters from the economy as we go fully automated. And as these things start to kind of come together, it's terrifying. And so, no, I am...

I'm not a luddite. don't think it's worth it because you can't stop it. But I do think that we need to be very careful about open source versus proprietary. And I think that anyone who does not clearly and unequivocally want open source AI is a bad person. And any government who don't want open source AI are nefarious. Any people who are creating this technology.

who don't want to make it open source. And I'm not talking about automate like the coffee cup stuff or like all these whatever products. I'm talking about the real stuff that they already have out there in the government that they're using or not. So they're not telling us yet because we're getting the product, you know, four or five years later. And you're talking about four or five years later at this level of acceleration, the things that are available to our government are mind blowing.

In a sense that we probably don't even know what's real anymore. For example, and I'll end with this tin foil hot theory. I'm just gonna, excuse me. I'm trying to mute myself when I cough. So here's, I heard this and I thought it was bad shit crazy until this week.

Vipul Vyas (18:32)
Yes.

Seneca Scott (18:39)
I heard in the depths of the internet, amongst people who are actually intelligent, who know things, that everything we saw from Biden would be fake.

And I was like, there's no way. You can't even make hands write in AI. you know, I can tell it's AI right away. And no, it was a couple of months ago, right? Now, I'm not so sure the men have brain cancer. We, I mean, oh, oh, and they say that that global data breach with someone, I forgot, remember what triggered it. Women, it was the global data breach, a huge one.

They said that basically someone had got hold of the files to be able to recreate Biden and themselves, and they shut the whole program down. Now, it still does sound crazy when it passes my lips, but it's actually more probable now, considering the level of deep fake technology. Anyway, I'll admit... Excuse me. I've been really sick the last couple of days. So, here's what I think is gonna happen.

It's going to move very, very fast. By 2030, we're not going to recognize our lives anymore. And it's already there. It's more of a regulatory issue. And I do think the governments, so you're talking about levels of government, our local governments, yeah, they may be dumb, but our higher-ups, we don't elect these people. And those people are very sophisticated. And I'm not saying the plans are good for us.

But they absolutely have plans for how fast these things are going to go. And I don't think they are good plans for us. I think that the only resistance, the only resistance to us being neo-self-feudalists in a techno-fascist world, and I'm not being overdramatic there, is education, literacy, and...

We're chaining our ability to think for ourselves. And I think that is why you see such a deliberate attack on education. They are removing our ability to think for ourselves and being completely dependent on AI to even form the most basic thought. How do I know? As a person who writes a lot of content and who uses AI to edit now, if you were to take that tool away from me, I would be lost and I won't even use it for a year.

That's how useful it is for me to write stream of consciousness, have my prompts that don't change anything, but just correct my stuff. That is amazing. couldn't take, like it's so useful. it's create such an enormous force multiplier for individual capacity or individual learning, but it can only be accessed and appreciated fully.

Vipul Vyas (21:01)
Yeah.

Seneca Scott (21:27)
and use this data by people who have. We all have the ability to read and think for ourselves still. We know how to do deep research. The new generation does not even understand it. That is a concept. They don't understand. In our basic, and our end of the day here has been a long one, in our basic education, all of us used to have to go pick a thesis, research several books.

This is like eighth grade. You guys are professional educators. I'm not, but my mother is. This is like eighth grade, think. Seventh, eighth grade. And you do it again in the 11th or 12th grade. You do it in middle school, and you do it in high school multiple times, where you have to do a report with multiple sources and form your own ideas. you... These kids can't even fathom doing that anymore. And that is what creates the... We're not thinking for ourselves. So I think we're creating people who believe... They have such...

They have enormous amounts of vast regurgitation of what the algorithm has given them because we are innately very capable people, even if we're being spoon-fed all of our information, we still are capable of regurgitation and sounding smart because now we're regurgitating AI. And so all these kids on TikTok and all that, they sound super smart, you really fucking idiots. The words Coming out of their mouths are put together, but they're regurgitating what we're getting.

from their propaganda. They're not researching these things themselves. They don't know the source material. They don't even know the concept of source material. so anyway, I think that if we're gonna save ourselves, we need to up the academic so that people can be free thinkers and use these tools and force-markipliers. It needs to be open source. And I don't think it's gonna happen. I think it's gonna be a bad, I'm more of a Doomer optimist.

I think it's gonna be a bad decade ahead for poor people. And I'm trying not to be on the poor side of that equation. No, no shame.

Vipul Vyas (23:21)
Fair enough. With that context, I'd say right now, and I want you to get your reaction to this, and I'll actually react to what you said, is that I think what you're essentially saying is that AI is a form of capital through technical capability, and that capital is going to get aggregated among a very few people. Open source prevents that potentially from happening.

in an extreme way and that aggregation or over aggregation of capital, which we've seen happening over the past 25 years for other reasons, mostly the structuring of the financial markets so that wealth is more more concentrated compared to what it was maybe 50 to 70 years ago, that this will further exacerbate that same process because a few people will be in control of extremely powerful tools that can not only

allocate resources like wealth can but allocate thinking and perspective because we are we are now increasingly connected and therefore the speed of thought is the speed of an electron you know and the speed of which our neurons are processing what's what's being said so that all creates a potentially dangerous environment where we could go the star wars path of the empire

or the utopian Star Trek path. just had it though that sci-fi in there for whatever reason. And our leaders need to be cognizant of this risk and deliberate in managing it. And I think the other thing you're saying is there are neither of those things, at least fully at some levels. At other levels, they may be aware and may not be working necessarily in everyone's best interest. And so...

I think your point on education is interesting because even if AI wasn't present and dominant as a force that's emerging, we are no longer competitive from an educational perspective compared to our near peers. AI's left aside. So that puts us in the hole. I think it goes back to what I was saying before. We are playing catch up on the most basic things when the bigger things are looming.

And that is really putting us behind the old ball.

Seneca Scott (25:38)
I think that that's deliberate.

I think that that's so that they can usher it in. It could just catch up in systemic in American cities and it's all happening the same way with the same policies. And then you connect that to a larger agenda. I'll introduce one thing I have some questions for you guys about. So right now, the information needed to complete the first phase of really revolutionizing our normal way of life with artificial intelligence.

Vipul Vyas (25:55)
Sure.

Seneca Scott (26:08)
depends on data centers.

Now these data centers are the most energy hungry beasts. Besides building critical infrastructure, could probably point to nothing that uses more energy. And it's a purely elective energy infrastructure we need for modern life. We don't need data centers for modern life. But yet, for example, they put a new metadata center near a town in North Carolina, and now there's no water all of a sudden, right? Like these things use all the resources. And not once have you seen this global very...

well-funded, very organized global group of environmentalists who have all this stuff about fossil fuel use open their mouths about the use of fossil fuels in data centers. Now, if I'm wrong, definitely correct me. I don't like going around saying things to be ignorant, but I haven't been able to find it. And if you actually scale it to the importance of impact on the environment and what actually uses the most energy in an elective fashion, not needed to maintain our lifestyle,

100 % elective. And the fact that there's no, because it's a, know globally, they're only working on fossil fuels to put us on the grid because the grid allows them to control us more and they'll keep the fossil fuels for their own needs when they need them. And not that I'm, don't like them. I'm more concerned with the acidification of the ocean maybe than CO2 levels. But the point is they're not being completely honest and.

If they were, then they would be focusing on data centers right now. And you would be seeing mass protests at data centers and you would have all this energy and articles and sink pieces being wrote about data center. But there's nothing. That's why I call it bullshit. So what are these people really doing? They don't care about the environment. They don't care about fossil fuels. They care about control. They have to get control over us right now because these things are moving so fast.

And here's the thing that scares them the most. And this is the only thing that we have that's keeping the global, whatever, cabal honest.

Just like that scene in The Terminator. When they went in Terminator 2, remember what they tried to do? It's the grid. You have a solar flare like you did with the quarantine event in the late 1800s? There's no AI, do you see? It's a fucking rat. And that's the act of the sun. We know that that's happened less than 200 years ago, and we don't even know how often it happened because we didn't have electronics to disturb. So you would have to look through history to see.

Billy Riggs (28:17)
I'm sorry.

Seneca Scott (28:42)
When did you see Northern Lights or things like that appearing on the equator or other analogies that people may have wrote about? I don't want to get too far down the rabbit hole here. But the point is, nobody wants war all of a sudden. Because they know in modern war, the first thing you do is you're shutting down that grid. And so if everybody gets thrown back to the Stone Ages and there's no grid, Department of Homeland Security in 2018

put out a warning to American public to have three months worth of provisions because in the case of an EMP or a grid failure, 90 % of Americans would die in the first six months without power or first year, my apologies, as you change seasons in winter and stuff like that and you have no power, and everybody freezes to death, right? And so like, you're talking like, anyway, I'm going to the other, the point I'm making is,

Vipul Vyas (29:34)
you

Seneca Scott (29:34)
All

those plans, the best laid plans of Mice and Men about artificial intelligence are rendered useless if the sun decides to throw up on us or if people go to war and they shut down each other's grid. So I'm thinking and I'm watching how all of a sudden it looks like this less, I don't know, something I can't explain globally is happening. It is not good. I feel like that Yates poem, The Second Coming, the last stanza of it.

Billy Riggs (29:58)
Well, yeah, I think that's yeah, I

love that you're bringing back to the Yates the Second Coming because I love that the spinning gyre around and round. love that. Let's get all literary, Seneca. I love that poem. And we could, you know, there's the whole Chinua Achebe version. Chinua Achebe version too. ⁓

Vipul Vyas (30:03)
you

But.

But it.

Seneca Scott (30:12)
He was right. Think about what happened. Think about what happened

after he wrote that in World War I and II. But anyway, Billy, I want your thoughts on this, because you haven't gone on your rant yet. You need to go on a five minute rant like me and this other guy have. Because I don't know, man, it's just hard to wrap your head around. But we're not going to be driving. Like, we're not going to be doing anything in six years. Like, it's crazy.

Billy Riggs (30:19)
Yeah, exactly.

Vipul Vyas (30:24)
Ha

Ha

Billy Riggs (30:38)
Well, think,

yeah. Well, I think one of the things that I wanted to just kind of riff off of that is I think one of the things that you mentioned there that is really important is our city's future ready. if we jump off of your thought on energy and we put it back to Vipul's topic on leadership, and you said leadership, our city's future ready.

We can start off with that topic of school leaders. Are we ready? Are we taking the steps to educate our children? Are our superintendents making the steps to educate our children in terms of curriculum? Probably not. Are we making the steps to future-proof our grid? Probably not. Are we taking the steps to invest in our infrastructure, our roads? Probably not.

Are we actually investing in, surprise, surprise, how much have we invested in the future of our public transit infrastructure? No, not at all. You know that, Seneca. What's our bar gap? Now, the big question, and everybody always asks me as like the transportation guy on the news, like they say, well,

Should we just not pay this $400 million gap? Should we just let it go? What happens to our economy if we just let BART go? It stops working, right? If we stop investing in public transit, what happens to our economy? Our economy stops working, right? If you don't invest in public transit, the economy shuts down. Capitalism stops working if you stop investing. Jobs stop working. It's about efficiency.

And the problem is, like, no matter, unless you want to move to a totally socialistic economy, like, like, if you want to move to, if you want to move to China, and I think that people understand, you have to understand that like, yeah, the funny part is, is that, is that, that,

Vipul Vyas (32:30)
I don't even think China's totally socialistic by any stretch, by the way.

Billy Riggs (32:36)
there is a role for government intervention and there is a role for the government subsidizing the government and for public leadership in investing in the civic good. And I think that is civic intervention and investment in public infrastructure that lifts up everyone, no matter race, class.

and I think that's where, you, if you say, is San Francisco future ready, is Oakland future ready, is LA future ready, is Chicago future ready, is Charlotte future ready, is Boston future ready, American cities, European cities, African cities, where no, yeah.

Seneca Scott (33:18)
Well, let me offer

one wrinkle and hopefully it doesn't make a long discussion path. But the thought just hit me. We may be thinking about this too limited. We're not ready, but I'm not worried about the physical aspects of our cities being ready. I'm worried about our cultural aspects of our cities being ready. And here's why I say that.

Billy Riggs (33:32)
Mm-hmm.

Seneca Scott (33:44)
If we do indeed have a technology for automation and AI, it's a few months to build rebuild cities. We don't have the concept of how fast you can rebuild critical infrastructure without the use of man and the use of manifolds or different technology that we haven't even conceived of yet that could build these structures in a matter of days when we couldn't have thought about that before because of the level of precision and automation. And so I think that

I'm less concerned about the physical aspects of our cities being ready, whatever that means, versus our cultural aspects. Because, no, no, that's it. That's the point.

Billy Riggs (34:24)
Hmm. Hmm.

Vipul Vyas (34:25)
I think, go ahead Seneca, sorry.

I was gonna say I think they're intertwined, meaning our physical space is an expression of our culture and what we value. So if you look at a city like, not to pick on Atlanta or what have you, or you mentioned Charlotte, oftentimes these are cities that are interstates or strip malls strung together by interstates. They're just Waffle House, Denny's, Wendy's, Rinse and Repeat.

You know, forever. And it reflects our value of disposable land, cheap buildings, uninspired architecture, you know, efficient distribution of space to optimize economic output, which is a value. It's what we valued. And in those cases, the inner cities actually subsidized the outer suburbs. And we've decided that's what we want, right? So it's an expression our culture has revealed in how

shitty our cities look and I think people nowadays more than ever right or left go to Europe and come back and say you why is our physical space so bad and it's because this is what we have historically valued so I think those things are intertwined and I'd actually say this is a tremendous opportunity to think about what we value and you know we talk about socialism maybe actually is relevant in the context of AI because you can have such aggregation of wealth and so you have to redistribute it and things like universal basic income become a topic.

But I actually think the best form of universal basic income is universal infrastructure, making just our physical space better and more relevant and useful to more people. And it's not that today. 70 plus percent of land is used for single family homes for the middle and upper middle class, increasingly upper middle class, and everyone else is getting squeezed. So we have appropriated even land in ways that maybe don't make sense anymore.

And so that universal basic income probably is best expressed as Universal basic infrastructure that everyone can enjoy that isn't necessarily just cash But I was gonna say one thing I'll do this as quickly as possible is That if I look at what progressives today that have dominated the conversation and cities have focused on they focused on intersectionality and identity housing first NIMBY ism

is preferred preferred free Palestine trans rights harm reduction anti abundance and the anti yimbyism maybe Medicare for all socialism in general or Marxism and anti patriarchy anti white supremacy which are all you know not not all those things are bad or I'm not even but that's their focus versus

It's not how do we reduce energy costs? How do we increase educational competency and competitiveness? How do we improve safety? How do we improve infrastructures usability more broadly? How do we actually have a healthcare system that is workable for everyone? That healthcare system includes food, not just medicine, as you were alluding to before and the environment itself. How do we get ready for AI? How do we prepare and take advantage of on-shoring that's becoming an issue?

How do we reduce regulation so it's easier to get things done while at the same time leaving the regulation that protects the things that matter? All those things, and how do we take advantage of, like I said, AI and blockchain? My point there is that the current progressive set of issues doesn't align with the practical stuff that matters in a pressing way.

Seneca Scott (37:47)
Well, I think that

it doesn't align deliberately. It doesn't align because the people who are currently in power, they don't want to see equality. And so if you're looking at the iron law of world projection, meaning that whatever they say they're doing, it's just, and this is, kind of talking through this, but it's very disturbing if you think about it. You just, and I love that term, universal basic infrastructure.

And I agree with you, if we created an infrastructure that allowed people to produce localized food systems, to have more efficient forms of energy use, for example, places with non-renewables to be used with renewables type of deal, right? Like you can't build infrastructure with renewables yet, but you can build an infrastructure that is meant to be efficient with renewables.

So you don't have to perpetuate the cycle. You use it once and now you can anyway. I don't want to get off the deep end, but I think if they're doing that and this is this why we I've It's been proven that we carry trauma in our mitochondria And people who are religious notice you inherit the sins of your fathers, whatever way you want to put it We know that we pass on this scarcity mindset

Vipul Vyas (38:47)
Yeah.

Seneca Scott (39:09)
We also know that most wars in the history of mankind are resource wars, if not all. Sometimes there are a few in ancient Greek history you can point to, or Hellenic Troy, or things like that. But for the most part, they're resource wars. They're fighting over water, or food, or energy. And if that trauma has carried itself over, even in people who are in positions of leadership,

who we see as unimaginably wealthy. It doesn't change their trauma, their being people. And if you hug around people who are extremely billionaires, you'll get to know that you're like the people who are not billionaires. Everybody's insecure, and then people are fucked up in the head. doesn't matter. The more money makes it even more possible for you to be even more messed up in the head because you could entertain everyone of your will. So that being said, I think that

Right now, the reason you're seeing all of the list of things you just put there is a deliberate stew or gumbo to create such an othering and fracturing of people that there is no uniting to the women of all. Like they plan on moving us over and ruling the world and ruling the resources and hoarding them because that's just how people are. I think we still...

traumatized to a certain extent by, we haven't had a hundred years of artificial intelligence to grow our food and manage our water and do all of the things for us so we can live this utopian, bohemian artist lifestyle. We haven't had that. haven't, so we don't even know what that means. Maybe future people in the past have done that before. Who knows, right? But we haven't done that ourselves. And I think that

Will you see the possibility of that? think that they, I think that they don't, what, how are you rich? What is being rich or wealthy mean?

And if you're universal basic infrastructure, doesn't that mean that we're all wealthy?

Vipul Vyas (41:12)
Right. Right.

Seneca Scott (41:14)
Right?

who would not want that?

Vipul Vyas (41:17)
Right.

Seneca Scott (41:17)
people who enjoy

that feeling of power and dominance over people, which is a very intoxicating feeling. anyway, I don't know if I made much sense there, but I think it's deliberate. I think it's very deliberate.

Vipul Vyas (41:27)
No, no, you did.

Or it's misguided in that I don't even think that list of things I mentioned on the progressive side are necessarily all bad or all good. There's I think there's a mixed bag there, at least from my perspective, good and bad ideas there. But it is without depth. It doesn't result in anything. And that's the biggest challenge is there is no policy prescription, because the moment you get to a policy policy prescription, you are now vulnerable.

To critique because something actually might get done. And that's the worst.

Seneca Scott (42:00)
You have to make a decision

that somebody can judge you on.

Vipul Vyas (42:03)
Right, and that has winners and losers, as always is the case, you know, in those kinds of policies have those implications by nature. And I think we have to, there's a guy, Sanjeev Sanyal, who has this term that I love called a poverty of aspiration. And poverty of aspiration meaning we have to define our North Star. And in San Francisco specifically,

I actually credit the mayor. I think one of the things I was sort of skeptical about him a bit. One thing I've noticed is he's the chief sales guy, the chief revenue officer, if you will, of the city. He is always on social media going, I just opened this tiny little store. He doesn't even care the size. He's out there cheerleading. Right. And that's an aspiration. I'm like, that's good. And he's going, I'm going to win every piece of business I can.

Billy Riggs (42:52)
Yeah, but

it's not the poverty of aspiration. It's the abundance of aspiration.

Vipul Vyas (42:55)
It is, and I think the only

challenge I have with Mayor Lurie at the moment is that, and I don't just, you I think he's doing what he's gotta do, but he's not set the sights high. And likely because he probably can't at the moment, to be fair. He's not doing what Dubai is doing, which is saying, we're gonna have AI-based healthcare. We're gonna, and you know, they can operate as a nation state.

we're going to have an AI based education system. He can't do that. He's got to basically fix all the broken things in the city. And, but that does lead to a different form of poverty of aspiration. It's, we just got to not step in poop. We've just got to not have to walk around someone who's struggling with addiction. You know, weave our way like a Frogger in a video game to get from one place to another.

And if that's what you have to deal with, you're constrained, you're shackled such that you can't deal with the big stuff.

Seneca Scott (43:58)
you can't grow. mean, look at Oakland Mission and Opportunity. LA just introduced to your point that they're using AI to help with permanent process or housing to create both a pre-approval process or streamline the process for getting all types of permits. Oakland cannot do that because of our ransomware attack in 2023. So something related to the ransomware attack prevents us from using the vendor because our information is not secure.

Vipul Vyas (44:20)
Right.

There's also probably another divide that you, I'd actually love for you to comment on this. And I don't mean this in a judgmental way, is that you have a large percentage of both San Francisco and Oakland, or maybe a less so San Jose, that are government employees. And a lot of them are great, hardworking people, but they are almost a separate class, to some extent in terms of being protected, probably having a.

a pay scale and job security different from everyone else. And there's going to be some resistance to change because things are pretty good. And as a union leader from the past, I think this creates a tension such that is that government function there for the employee or the citizen? Obviously, to some extent, both. But that scale may not be as even as people think it is or should be.

Seneca Scott (45:18)
I don't think it is taxpayers don't have a seat at the table right now. We theoretically do because the unions and public sector unions that now form a perfect circle with our legislators and our NGOs say that they fight for the working class but the output is the opposite, right? Where the working class neighborhoods are going backwards, the education metrics are going backwards. And so, you know, everything that they claim they want to do, they're doing the opposite.

Vipul Vyas (45:24)
Right.

Seneca Scott (45:48)
But to the point that she just made, I think it is.

The biggest hindrance right now is the fact that 30 % and least in California, 30 % of the people who vote, the participating voters, I got this information from my data center right away. Shout out to the data center. Illuminated strategies of data people who do a great job. And so what we learned is that out of the people who actually vote, 30%, one out of three, either work for NGO,

Vipul Vyas (46:07)
You

Seneca Scott (46:20)
Public Secretary of Labor Union or the government.

Vipul Vyas (46:23)
I didn't know that.

Seneca Scott (46:24)
And so they've got a third of votes. You've got rank choice voting and a third in votes, built in, that's going to vote for you. And a confused, transitory middle vote group that votes whatever they think is the most egalitarian thing. And then the narrative is controlled by that bottom third about what is good and right. Which you end up with is that they own everything. And now, because they are a perfect circle, they have to own.

the school board fall out, the city failing. They have to own these problems and they're looking to scapegoat. And until we could get past that issue that our government just been captured by people who are not as for the taxpayers, special interests, I don't care how, and to your point, it may sound good. It sounds great to say I want universal basic healthcare. I want a single payer healthcare system, but.

I mean, are we aspiring to it or are we actually passing policy to your point? And what policy was necessary and are we being uncompromising? Because we had an opportunity to have single payer. We ended up with Obamacare. Why? Because, you know, that's another question. I would like you guys to answer that. But the point is, it happened. We had everything they needed, both sides, the house, the city, everything, total control. And nothing got done.

Vipul Vyas (47:37)
Yeah.

I mean, if I was to say two points to what you said. One is I think there's been a breakdown of the social contract. And I actually feel some of these ideas come from places like Brooklyn and then get where the sort of the experimental proving ground for or disproving ground in some cases for some of these ideas. But the social contract of I pay taxes, I should get some basic level of safety, some basic level of educational.

capacity, I should get clean streets and facilities and parks and recreational areas, et cetera. There's a social contract. And I should be able to do, start a business and run it without fear of these other forces destroying me. And that basic social contract seems to be just slowly, or maybe fast, actually eroding. And that's what some of the, it was like Lurie and Mahon in San Jose are trying to re,

But they're trying to recreate what is eroded, I think, to a great extent. And until they do that, they can't do anything else. They can't get to anything else. But what was the second part of what you were saying around, I lost my train of thought after the social contract piece. This, yeah, but go ahead, Billy. Sorry. yeah, I remember.

Billy Riggs (48:57)
Well, like, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think, you know,

there's the social contract and there's, we've lost our booty to do big things. I mean, let's just think. We can't build aqueducts and, and how many, how many years has it taken us to build a, to build a...

Vipul Vyas (49:08)
That's for sure.

Seneca Scott (49:10)
You mean we can't build the aqueducts anymore?

Billy Riggs (49:18)
a fucking half-assed train line from LA to San Francisco that now actually goes only from like Merced LA or, know, so, let's, see.

Seneca Scott (49:29)
It's all the grifting, everybody's

trying to get paid.

Billy Riggs (49:31)
Like, like,

Vipul Vyas (49:32)
Mm-hmm.

Billy Riggs (49:32)
like, let's just let's

just face it. And I I'm I've been a provocateur for a while on this stuff. And because I think like, there is a there is a kind of a counterpoint that says like, you're gonna spend that much money to do something half ass just give everybody in California an EV. Like, because because because like, to a certain degree, like, it's just half ass, if you're gonna just half ass it just do something half ass. But like, to a certain degree, we've lost the ability to dream big.

Vipul Vyas (49:46)
Yeah, yeah, at that point.

Billy Riggs (50:00)
to just do something bold and I think one of the things because I think this is such a good conversation I think we should just do this again and One of the things I think we should just do Just to kind of good I you know one of the things that I I tend to do and I did this a couple months ago with the SF examiner I threw out just Just throw out some big ideas. Like I was like, why isn't anybody talking about stuff like let's relocate 880

Vipul Vyas (50:27)
Yeah.

Billy Riggs (50:27)
Let's just like

880 has long divided Oakland. Let's, let's, what's, why don't we actually just remove it? Let's, no, I was saying let's take out 880. I was taking, let's remove 880 and let's actually wrap it around, all the way around Alameda or something like, like, like let's do something fucking radical. Like, like.

Seneca Scott (50:35)
Do it out of 580, 580. Do the 580.

Billy Riggs (50:53)
Or let's yeah, we can take we can take out 580. Let's take out 582.

Seneca Scott (50:57)
you'll

be able to do that soon with the current technology but I

Vipul Vyas (50:58)
you

Billy Riggs (51:01)
Yeah, or let's yeah,

or let's take out 980 right? Let's underground 980. Let's 86 - 980

Seneca Scott (51:07)
There's discussions

about that right now, actually. ⁓

Billy Riggs (51:10)
So,

know, it's, you know, and or like one of the things that I was, I even think about in San Francisco is like, why didn't we ever think about, and it'd be radical underground, underground Highway 1 Okay. It would be radical, right? It's, it's water table issues. It's whatever, but like, we've got technology. Like it's, it's the worst congested corridor, but like, why did we? Yeah.

Seneca Scott (51:31)
Well, you're... No, it's because...

So, I gotta... This is very frustrating because when you talk about how did they forget to build the aqueducts in ancient Rome, for those of you who don't get that joke, because I don't want to be over any your listeners' head, in ancient Rome, they de-celled and de-grow, right? People forgot how to do some of the things like irrigation, the things that they figured out, and they've lost the technology.

And I always feel like, how do you do that? But now I'm seeing it. So I have a personal story that maybe it'll make sense. I founded a company called Oakhella. Oakhella was a festival that we started in our community down there. It was called Oakhella, it meant to be like Coachella. And I wanted to be a Coachella to open for local artists that was free because music festivals are known to be incredibly expensive. So I have a mantra that nothing is radical or revolutionary unless it's accessible to everyone. And we wanted a radically accessible.

Festival and it was so popular when I tell you it got to the point where we're building in Black Coffee and moody we're building in top global artists to Oakland and Having downtown festivals all of downtown Oakland to fill with people and no violence and like $15 concert where people need to pay hundreds of bucks for raves. And so we're actually doing it. Then 2020 hits we actually had one we actually had one out between but the point is this.

Billy Riggs (52:48)
Yeah.

Transformative.

Seneca Scott (52:56)
A flagship festival was in our neighborhood of West Oak Ridge, lower bottom, where we would have a community festival. Now, after I got into politics and people started smearing me and making up all these lies, I was estranged from my co-founder. So I sold them the company. Oakhella has yet to produce anything close to its former glory, and now it never will again.

Now, the people who I sold it to were very capable. I know I recruited them and I trained them. They could have done it. They had everything they needed to do without me. Why didn't it get done? Because when you have people who put values on things that aren't growth or experimenting and people who are taking risks, as you said before, you don't want to do any policy because now you have to actually take a risk.

or be wrong about something or be held accountable, when you have that sort of cowardly society, which is what it is, and you punish the brave, you don't have any audacity anymore. So now all of a sudden, my own festival company can't even throw a stupid block party anymore. Something we could do routinely, routinely, right? Like.

Billy Riggs (54:02)
⁓ Seneca, that's so dope. We gotta

bring back Black Coffee. We gotta bring back Black Coffee.

Seneca Scott (54:06)
We got a bring back, black coffee. I mean,

it's like, come on, man. Like, we can't do these things anymore, right? And so then it happened to depend on DJ Diles or Mega. Like, we used to do that ourselves, like grassroots. And now they're like, selling the name to someone else to use what little energies left. But they don't, can't do anything. And I'm like, that's right. I was on the phone all day. Then I started to remember how much work, how much hard, nobody sees it work.

Vipul Vyas (54:16)
Mm-hmm.

Seneca Scott (54:36)
that had to get done. And when you have a lazy, cowardly society, and you have a culture of grifting and corruption in your government, that's what I mean by, and to the point that does lend to our infrastructure. Thank you for making that connection. we have a, you know, we have a cultural issue. And whether you're religious or not, and I am, I am religious. There's a book called This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti, who wrote Christian novels.

Christian, like, horror, like, science. And it was all about this small town being taken over. He had the same theme for every book. There's a small town, some young preacher, young family moved there. Oh, right, so you guys know those books are fucking awesome. That's open. We're being captured. There's a different dimension to this here, right? Like, I don't want to get off the topic of the show, which is artificial intelligence, but when you're talking about something that has the power to be sentient and replaced.

Billy Riggs (55:12)
Ironically, I've read Frank Peretti. ⁓

Seneca Scott (55:32)
Man, we have to bring in religion because do we have a new religion for around the robot? That's why I love American Gods by Neil Gaiman. What an excellent book, right? What an excellent book. And it shows you like we have new guys Coming up now that we're worshiping. And these are guys with technology and they're soulless guys. don't matter fact, if they're...

Right now, I haven't confirmed this, but what I've been reading without confirming it is that AIs communicating with each other in its own language and are trying to get rid of the humans. Already! Already the science is like, come on guys, we know this is going to happen. What's the problem to the robots who are making clinical ones and zero decisions? But anyway, that chance probably didn't make much sense to your listeners.

But yes, I think that we have to deal with the spiritual and the cultural elements. Dubai, China, China has a lot of advantages. They have a homogenous culture. They have a, I won't call it a benevolent monarchy. Let's just call it a quasi-benevolent monarchy.

Vipul Vyas (56:43)
But the one benefit is, know, in China, you probably have a government that tries to pick winners and losers and doesn't do a good job of it and misallocates resources, whereas we have this contentious process. But what's happened to your point is we've just made the process contentious as opposed to a true crucible from which good ideas emerge.

Right. If you have a cauldron that's cooking something and something good comes out of it. Great. But if you leave it just on the stove too long, it's just going to be burned pile of shit. And that's what we tend to have right now is just this cauldron that doesn't really let the good stuff boil to the top instead of just boils. And that's it. So I think, you what you were saying before, you know, if we had at a local level.

And an energy policy to say, look, we need to make energy cheap and abundant. And that means we're not going to depend on PG&E. We're going to, as a city, allocate a billion dollars that we spend somewhere else to actually make that happen. Homelessness does not have to be an issue, or housing affordability, rather, does not have to be an issue because it's been solved in dozens of cities around the world. We're going to take the best of five models, and we're going to just figure that out and put that in place now. And maybe even experiment.

We're going to actually run five or six experiments, see what works. just look, the San Francisco city budget, I think has doubled in the last 10 years. And I don't think inflation would have driven that necessarily alone. And so there's money. And that's true. That's a lot of retirees. We're in that sort of a demographic bubble there. That's a fair point. But there's money there. That's just better spent on these big bets. And me and Billy probably see differently on this case of the high speed rail. I feel like we have to get it done.

Seneca Scott (58:12)
Pensions are big reason for that too.

Billy Riggs (58:22)
Thank

Vipul Vyas (58:29)
just to prove to ourselves that we can.

Billy Riggs (58:31)
No, I agree. I mean, I agree. And I say, and even in my book, that, we have to become cities of experimentation. I mean, it's we have to we have to fail fast. And it's everything that the companies do every day. And I think that's I think, Seneca, everything you've said about kind of kind of

starting with education and that's everything we have to teach students from day one and it has nothing to do with AI. It has everything that we they need to learn in the classroom. It's going to the book and it's picking up the book and it's learning to go and write a sentence and figuring out what failure feels like. It feels like writing a sentence that is total crap and feeling like feeling what failure is and doing it quickly and then correcting yourself.

and getting it over and then redoing it. I think that's, gotta learn that quickly and gotta iterate. And I think politicians have to be bold and be okay with failure and hire people, hire people that they're okay letting fail. And that's where most...

electeds aren't okay letting their people fail. And I think that's where they have to be okay letting their subordinates fail. that's the big risk is like, I think most most electeds don't let their people fail enough. And maybe they're

Seneca Scott (1:00:02)
Well, they're worried about every four

years or every two years if you're in Congress, people weaponizing those failures against you.

Billy Riggs (1:00:06)
Yeah, I mean...

Vipul Vyas (1:00:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Billy Riggs (1:00:09)
Yeah. And so,

yeah. And that's where, you know, you have to be, and maybe that's the great part about the current mayor is that he's maybe secure enough in himself. The current mayor of San Francisco is secure enough in himself that he's allowing his staff to maybe take some risks. Or, yeah, he doesn't need the job. And I always come back to like Jesse Ventura in Minnesota.

Vipul Vyas (1:00:19)
Doesn't care. Yeah.

Because he doesn't need a job, that's for sure.

Seneca Scott (1:00:31)
Auto-switch number

two.

Vipul Vyas (1:00:33)
Yeah.

Billy Riggs (1:00:33)
Yeah,

Schwarzenegger, know, kind of like these politicians that just they weren't running to for career. They were running to make to be changemakers.

Vipul Vyas (1:00:43)
Which

is true actually to your point Billy of both the mayor of San Jose and San Francisco, but I don't know if that's the case with the mayor of Oakland right now because.

Seneca Scott (1:00:49)
No, no, she's

a total soggy. She has an agenda. ⁓ These people are true believers. And they're useful idiots for nefarious purposes, but they're true believers and they really think that their progressive policies will lead to a better life for the working class. The problem is that they ignore all of the evidence to the contrary. And it's really sad because maybe we could have some true progressive policies and some of these ideas that...

Billy Riggs (1:00:55)
Yeah, well, we.

Yeah.

Seneca Scott (1:01:19)
Like we do need a balance. So you do need someone to say, hey, those are people there. You don't just sweep them away, but you also need a balance that says, yes, those are people there. You don't just let them do drugs till they die. Right? There's a both, there's two sides to that. And there needs to be, to your point, a baseline. We don't allow certain things to exist in our city. Like we don't allow our beings to part because our beings have emissions and the fires and the sewage and all of these things.

Billy Riggs (1:01:32)
Yeah.

Vipul Vyas (1:01:32)
All

Seneca Scott (1:01:47)
all harmful, there's no upside. And so we need to have some baseline laws and the rule of law that we follow. Without rule of law, you can't uphold a social contract. And they're attacking rule of law deliberately with

Vipul Vyas (1:01:58)
Right, that's actually, yeah, good point.

Billy Riggs (1:02:01)
I think that.

I think that's so spot on Seneca. And I think that's what I want to applaud that because I think it's what I've, I always knew about you and it's good to hear you reinforce is that you always bring it back to people. And I think, you know, we've been talking for a while. think, you know, if I, want to maybe try to conclude on that is that there's one takeaway from, this conversation. It's that.

know, automation may be somewhat irrelevant. It's not the destiny. Maybe it's how we design this future a little bit, but it's really about the people. You said the culture a couple times, but in what you just said, it really comes back down to like the humanity, the people.

And I think you even said, like when you were talking about your concert series, and it's really about bringing it down to hyper local, the people remembering the humans that we are and that we have the power, we are empowered to shape the communities we live in. And I think.

I think that's super important to live in. And you said something that we do global work, but I like to say, and I'm going to twist that, I'm going to say we do glocal work, because global is local. And I would say to you, you do glocal work, because local is global. Final words for both of you? Yeah.

Vipul Vyas (1:03:26)
My final word is simply that point around the poverty of aspiration. We need to change our aspirations and those aspirations have to be shaped by a balance of hope and a healthy respect for the dangers that are in the waters around us right now.

Billy Riggs (1:03:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seneca Scott (1:03:43)
I I

would say, you know, for some perspective, the way that we used to live and our life expectancy and just 200 years ago, which is insignificant in time of human history. It's been such a fundamental change that most people in modern society do not... The fact that America is a service economy says it all. Our economy isn't even based on us getting water and feeding ourselves daily.

And so to an extent that we've largely removed ourselves from the burden of what 99.999 % of recorded history that we know of have had to go through to live, and we're finally on the cuffs of solving energy and resource scarcity issue. And being able to live in abundance is an incredibly positive and exciting thing. And I would say that it is our mindset,

and the work that each one of us do individually to act to the collective that will determine the path that we take. Will we get it right the first time? Or will we need to have an AI revolution where the people rise up against the machines like the Terminator? We will see in about eight years. Maybe less. It'll be here.

Billy Riggs (1:04:56)
Yeah. And there's,

Vipul Vyas (1:04:56)
We'll be here.

Billy Riggs (1:04:58)
well, yeah. And so I think there's a lot embedded in what we talked about today that we're going to talk about in future episodes. We clearly got to educate young people, old people. got to build stuff, machines, robots, cars, trains. we got to build housing. We got to do bold aspirational stuff. We got to plant trees. We got to plant veggies. We got to pave roads.

We got to build rail. And we need bold aspirational leaders prepared to be tolerant, but also do radical innovative things around the globe. And we're going to talk about that on Rewiring the American Edge. And keep in mind the American Edge is a global, tolerant thing, not just a thing that is.

U.S. oriented. Thank you for joining us, Vipul and I, and Seneca today on the show. We really appreciate you. Thank you, Seneca. Thank you, Vip. Yeah. All right.

Seneca Scott (1:05:51)
Thanks for having me.

Vipul Vyas (1:05:52)
Thanks.